Redisplay Messages: Compact | Brief | All | Full Show Messages: All | Without Replies| Author: | Nubs_Select  | | Posted: | May 17, 2024 13:51 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, zorbanj writes:
| | In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| |
Since it’s a rare thing and helps the customer and costs (relatively speaking)
me just about nothing as a business it makes sense to keep things simple and
just reship it
|
I don't think you're helping the customer. What you're doing is perpetuating
cruddy buyer behavior. If the buyer had to pay to re-ship I guarantee you they
would make damn sure their address was correct going forward.
|
I kinda get what you’re saying but I can’t say I see it the same way unfortunately
| | | |
I’m sure they would be willing but with taxes involved it adds needless confusion
so might as well keep things simple and save myself time and hassle and keep
the customer extra happy at the cost of several $ once in a blue moon. Tho I
guess this is a sellers preference just like when they leave feedback, it’s up
to the seller and ultimately isn’t any major issue but I do agree if shipping
is expensive or I feel like it was “maliciously” done I would likely not offer
a free reship
|
All these little giveaways start to add up eventually.
|
It would take an extremely long time for $0-$10 a year to cause damage
|
 |
| Author: | zorbanj | | Posted: | May 17, 2024 13:26 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 25 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| |
Since it’s a rare thing and helps the customer and costs (relatively speaking)
me just about nothing as a business it makes sense to keep things simple and
just reship it
|
I don't think you're helping the customer. What you're doing is perpetuating
cruddy buyer behavior. If the buyer had to pay to re-ship I guarantee you they
would make damn sure their address was correct going forward.
| |
I’m sure they would be willing but with taxes involved it adds needless confusion
so might as well keep things simple and save myself time and hassle and keep
the customer extra happy at the cost of several $ once in a blue moon. Tho I
guess this is a sellers preference just like when they leave feedback, it’s up
to the seller and ultimately isn’t any major issue but I do agree if shipping
is expensive or I feel like it was “maliciously” done I would likely not offer
a free reship
|
All these little giveaways start to add up eventually.
|
|
| Author: | zorbanj | | Posted: | May 17, 2024 13:16 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 24 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, peregrinator writes:
| | In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| | Yes but how would you collect and remit it? Legally is dosnt matter if the tax
is 1 cent or $100 it still has to be treated the same
|
I can't speak for zorbanj but I don't think the added shipping charge
in this case would count as an internet marketplace order requiring the collection
and remission of sales tax.
|
Some states impose sales tax on shipping and others don't. I think BL imposes
sales tax on shipping for all states that have a sales tax, so that's being
handled incorrectly in the first place. O f course our great state of New Jersey
does impose sales tax on shipping.
My point to Nubs is that the sales tax is too small to care about. Maybe it's
different in Canada and they smash through your door if they think you owe $3
in tax for re-ships.
|
|
| Author: | Nubs_Select | | Posted: | May 17, 2024 13:08 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 18 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, peregrinator writes:
| | In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| | Yes but how would you collect and remit it? Legally is dosnt matter if the tax
is 1 cent or $100 it still has to be treated the same
|
I can't speak for zorbanj but I don't think the added shipping charge
in this case would count as an internet marketplace order requiring the collection
and remission of sales tax.
|
Interesting thought but what about those of us to have to collect sales tax ourselves?
I have to charge the buyer sales tax and write the number down somewhere and
hope I can remember it during tax time? It can be complicated and unnecessary
work which I’d gladly spend several $ to not worry about in addition in order
to charge sales tax I’d need to somehow include my tax id to the payment which
is even more work and confusion
|
|
| Author: | peregrinator | | Posted: | May 17, 2024 12:48 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 26 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| | Yes but how would you collect and remit it? Legally is dosnt matter if the tax
is 1 cent or $100 it still has to be treated the same
|
I can't speak for zorbanj but I don't think the added shipping charge
in this case would count as an internet marketplace order requiring the collection
and remission of sales tax.
|
|
| Author: | Nubs_Select | | Posted: | May 17, 2024 12:23 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 22 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, zorbanj writes:
| | In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| | | | Yes, it is worth the time. Shipping in the US starts at ~ $4 and goes up from
there. Shipping is the same cost as it was the 1st time, just add in the 49 cent
Paypal per transaction fee and send a PayPal request, takes 10 seconds.
|
And what if taxes are involved? most places have online tax laws so you'd
also have to charge the buyer tax and then remit it
|
If shipping were $10 (which is alot for a domestic order) sales tax would be
about 75 cents. I'm not worried about it.
|
Yes but how would you collect and remit it? Legally is dosnt matter if the tax
is 1 cent or $100 it still has to be treated the same
| | | | | | Why should a seller pay for this out of pocket? If you as a seller makes a mistake,
do you expect the buyer to pay for it? This is mollycoddling, not "great
customer service".
|
Nope, If a seller makes a mistake they cover it, if a buyer makes a mistake many
business still cover it (such as if you buy the wrong size clothing on amazon
you can still return it at the cost of amazon), I dont quite see how this is
"overprotective", it is good customer service and would make me want
to go back to that company in the future.
|
Ordering the wrong part is different than having the wrong address. I have no
issue refunding a buyer for wrong parts as long as they are returned in the condition
received.
|
It’s a similar example to the address. Just like how even if you know say your
shirt size you might still order the wrong size just like if you know your address
you might write the wrong one down. It’s an honest mistake
| | Having the wrong address is just stupid and a seller shouldn't pay to re-ship.
|
Since it’s a rare thing and helps the customer and costs (relatively speaking)
me just about nothing as a business it makes sense to keep things simple and
just reship it
| | | | | | How hard is it to have the correct shipping address?
|
mistakes happen there isn't a need to try and go thru
the hassle of trying to figure out how a buyer can pay several $ and get things
potentially complicated with taxes when you can save yourself time and hassle
by simply buying a new shipping label (or a few stamps).
|
It's not complicated, it takes no time at all and it's not a hassle.
I've never had a buyer on any selling platform object to paying for a re-ship
due to an incorrect shipping address.
|
I’m sure they would be willing but with taxes involved it adds needless confusion
so might as well keep things simple and save myself time and hassle and keep
the customer extra happy at the cost of several $ once in a blue moon. Tho I
guess this is a sellers preference just like when they leave feedback, it’s up
to the seller and ultimately isn’t any major issue but I do agree if shipping
is expensive or I feel like it was “maliciously” done I would likely not offer
a free reship
|
|
| Author: | zorbanj | | Posted: | May 17, 2024 08:57 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 36 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| | | | Yes, it is worth the time. Shipping in the US starts at ~ $4 and goes up from
there. Shipping is the same cost as it was the 1st time, just add in the 49 cent
Paypal per transaction fee and send a PayPal request, takes 10 seconds.
|
And what if taxes are involved? most places have online tax laws so you'd
also have to charge the buyer tax and then remit it
|
If shipping were $10 (which is alot for a domestic order) sales tax would be
about 75 cents. I'm not worried about it.
| | | | Why should a seller pay for this out of pocket? If you as a seller makes a mistake,
do you expect the buyer to pay for it? This is mollycoddling, not "great
customer service".
|
Nope, If a seller makes a mistake they cover it, if a buyer makes a mistake many
business still cover it (such as if you buy the wrong size clothing on amazon
you can still return it at the cost of amazon), I dont quite see how this is
"overprotective", it is good customer service and would make me want
to go back to that company in the future.
|
Ordering the wrong part is different than having the wrong address. I have no
issue refunding a buyer for wrong parts as long as they are returned in the condition
received.
Having the wrong address is just stupid and a seller shouldn't pay to re-ship.
| | | | How hard is it to have the correct shipping address?
|
mistakes happen there isn't a need to try and go thru
the hassle of trying to figure out how a buyer can pay several $ and get things
potentially complicated with taxes when you can save yourself time and hassle
by simply buying a new shipping label (or a few stamps).
|
It's not complicated, it takes no time at all and it's not a hassle.
I've never had a buyer on any selling platform object to paying for a re-ship
due to an incorrect shipping address.
|
|
| Author: | Nubs_Select | | Posted: | May 16, 2024 21:00 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 47 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, zorbanj writes:
| | In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| |
if its cheap shipping (such as in Canada which starts at about $2) then is it
worth the time to try and get the buyer to pay for shipping, then have payment
fees, possibly deal with taxes, etc
|
Yes, it is worth the time. Shipping in the US starts at ~ $4 and goes up from
there. Shipping is the same cost as it was the 1st time, just add in the 49 cent
Paypal per transaction fee and send a PayPal request, takes 10 seconds.
|
And what if taxes are involved? most places have online tax laws so you'd
also have to charge the buyer tax and then remit it
| | | | or just pay several $ out of pocket on extremely
rare occasions and as such providing great customer service? (and as mentioned
if it costs a lot on shipping then to charge them)
|
Why should a seller pay for this out of pocket? If you as a seller makes a mistake,
do you expect the buyer to pay for it? This is mollycoddling, not "great
customer service".
|
Nope, If a seller makes a mistake they cover it, if a buyer makes a mistake many
business still cover it (such as if you buy the wrong size clothing on amazon
you can still return it at the cost of amazon), I dont quite see how this is
"overprotective", it is good customer service and would make me want
to go back to that company in the future.
| | How hard is it to have the correct shipping address?
|
quite, from experience (usually several times a month), people who move, often
times forget to update addresses or forget to write the apartment number on their
address, usually they message me after they place the order but before I ship
it out but not always. mistakes happen there isn't a need to try and go thru
the hassle of trying to figure out how a buyer can pay several $ and get things
potentially complicated with taxes when you can save yourself time and hassle
by simply buying a new shipping label (or a few stamps).
|
|
| Author: | zorbanj | | Posted: | May 16, 2024 20:47 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 46 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| |
if its cheap shipping (such as in Canada which starts at about $2) then is it
worth the time to try and get the buyer to pay for shipping, then have payment
fees, possibly deal with taxes, etc
|
Yes, it is worth the time. Shipping in the US starts at ~ $4 and goes up from
there. Shipping is the same cost as it was the 1st time, just add in the 49 cent
Paypal per transaction fee and send a PayPal request, takes 10 seconds.
| | or just pay several $ out of pocket on extremely
rare occasions and as such providing great customer service? (and as mentioned
if it costs a lot on shipping then to charge them)
|
Why should a seller pay for this out of pocket? If you as a seller makes a mistake,
do you expect the buyer to pay for it? This is mollycoddling, not "great
customer service". How hard is it to have the correct shipping address?
|
|
| Author: | Nubs_Select | | Posted: | May 16, 2024 18:28 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 43 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| | | Ah I disagree on this one; if it's the buyers fault (typo in address...)
then they've got to pay to ship again.
|
if its cheap shipping (such as in Canada which starts at about $2) then is it
worth the time to try and get the buyer to pay for shipping, then have payment
fees, possibly deal with taxes, etc or just pay several $ out of pocket on extremely
rare occasions and as such providing great customer service? (and as mentioned
if it costs a lot on shipping then to charge them)
|
|
| Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | May 16, 2024 18:18 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 41 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| | In Problem Order, ryjacks writes:
| | Hello all!
I just received an order in the mail I had shipped almost a month ago and it
has a sticker saying undeliverable. What should I do here? Should I refund the
whole order, or swallow the extra reshaping costs. Thank you!
|
technically speaking you usually dont have to but realistically its simpler for
everyone involved to contact the buyer for the correct address then reship it
out at your expense as it isn't something that happens to often (unless shipping
is really expensive)
|
Ah I disagree on this one; if it's the buyers fault (typo in address...)
then they've got to pay to ship again.
Much more, with some international shipping methods (at least here) the seller
is invoiced for the parcel to be shipped back. Buyer could also have to pay for
this.
|
|
| Author: | ryjacks | | Posted: | May 16, 2024 17:36 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, Nubs_Select writes:
| | In Problem Order, ryjacks writes:
| | Hello all!
I just received an order in the mail I had shipped almost a month ago and it
has a sticker saying undeliverable. What should I do here? Should I refund the
whole order, or swallow the extra reshaping costs. Thank you!
|
technically speaking you usually dont have to but realistically its simpler for
everyone involved to contact the buyer for the correct address then reship it
out at your expense as it isn't something that happens to often (unless shipping
is really expensive)
|
Thank you!
|
|
| Author: | Nubs_Select | | Posted: | May 16, 2024 17:30 | | Subject: | Re: Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 38 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, ryjacks writes:
| | Hello all!
I just received an order in the mail I had shipped almost a month ago and it
has a sticker saying undeliverable. What should I do here? Should I refund the
whole order, or swallow the extra reshaping costs. Thank you!
|
technically speaking you usually dont have to but realistically its simpler for
everyone involved to contact the buyer for the correct address then reship it
out at your expense as it isn't something that happens to often (unless shipping
is really expensive)
|
|
| Author: | ryjacks | | Posted: | May 16, 2024 17:00 | | Subject: | Undeliverable Adress | | Viewed: | 124 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| Hello all!
I just received an order in the mail I had shipped almost a month ago and it
has a sticker saying undeliverable. What should I do here? Should I refund the
whole order, or swallow the extra reshaping costs. Thank you!
|
|
| Author: | Stellar | | Posted: | May 16, 2024 04:44 | | Subject: | Re: Shipping not included On invoice Summary | | Viewed: | 32 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | In Problem Order, peregrinator writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | However, the seller wants me to send 2 payments - one for the invoice summary
total, and a 2nd for the shipping.
|
How would you send the 2nd payment?
|
Seller suggests via paypal directly - not thru bricklink.
|
That’s against the TOS.
I don’t know about the rules in your state but if there’s Sales taxes on shipping,
by law, BL has to collect it, and BL can only do that if the payment is “onsite”
(done with the Pay button on the site, not by going on PayPal by yourself).
Otherwise, it’s tax fraud 
| | But still looking for what the seller needs to "fix", so the invoice
they send out is correct in the first place.
|
Yep, better.
|
OK - I looked at the Invoice - Tax was based on purchase price [not counting
shipping]. Looked at a couple of my other invoices I have - tax was based on
purchase price [not counting shipping]. So. I don't believe there is a Tax/Legal
issues here.
However, I'm still looking for what the Seller needs to do/change,
so that shipping in included in the summary part of the invoice [and is included
in the amount that is liked to the pay button]. Note: shipping is listed in
the detailed section below the summary, but not in the summary.
Do I need to post this in a different forum?
Thank You
|
Maybe that seller needs to reset the template settings of the invoice as TAX
tags were added not so long ago. But should be careful to copy the old one custom
parameters to add to the new reset invoice template.
|
|
| Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | May 15, 2024 21:40 | | Subject: | Re: Shipping not included On invoice Summary | | Viewed: | 34 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | In Problem Order, 1001bricks writes:
| | The point is:
It's not your role to tell the seller what he exactly has to change.
For multiple reasons, like Tax, PayPal protection, eventual fees avoidance, eventual
exhorbitant shipping fees etc, and as already said, the Shipping price should
be included in the order.
You shoud NOT have to pay separate amounts for a single and simple order.
If the seller can't do this, please forget it, pick another seller.
|
OK,
1) So how do I cancel my order without it hurting me and my bricklink ratings?
2) Does this seller need to be reported to Bricklink? If so - how?
|
FYI and IMO: buyers' feedback ratings doesn't matter at all.
A seller may freak out at 0 FB and run away at -10, of course.
But I don't think any seller will have a look at say a 42 FB rating buyer
to check if he's trusty or not.
Personally I don't think I ever looked at a buyer profile - except when having
a problem (bad communication, far too much demanding, NPB...)
Then, sorry if I didn't read anything, but I'd be you:
I'd first try a message to the seller: "Sorry but I won't make 2
payments for a single order. Please kindly cancel the order?"
Or I'd request the cancellation (OCR) with kind of the same reason / description.
If all doesn't work and you feel strong, I'd simply not pay, let the
NPB come, and explain everything in the NPB discussion. Then open a Help-Desk
Ticket and ask removal of this unjustified NPB. It'll be done, and the eventual
feedback removed. But it may take months. But again, as a buyer, even if you
had 12 negatives: it really won't change anything.
Yes, this seller could be reported to BrickLink for various reasons.
If it's a tiny shop, I'd better try communication (including sending
him this discussion link?)
But if a pro shop, then they shouldn't do this, and yes, probably report?
As you feel.
HTH?
|
|
| Author: | danb987654 | | Posted: | May 15, 2024 20:36 | | Subject: | Re: Shipping not included On invoice Summary | | Viewed: | 26 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, 1001bricks writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | In Problem Order, peregrinator writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | However, the seller wants me to send 2 payments - one for the invoice summary
total, and a 2nd for the shipping.
|
How would you send the 2nd payment?
|
Seller suggests via paypal directly - not thru bricklink.
|
That’s against the TOS.
I don’t know about the rules in your state but if there’s Sales taxes on shipping,
by law, BL has to collect it, and BL can only do that if the payment is “onsite”
(done with the Pay button on the site, not by going on PayPal by yourself).
Otherwise, it’s tax fraud
| | But still looking for what the seller needs to "fix", so the invoice
they send out is correct in the first place.
|
Yep, better.
|
OK - I looked at the Invoice - Tax was based on purchase price [not counting
shipping]. Looked at a couple of my other invoices I have - tax was based on
purchase price [not counting shipping]. So. I don't believe there is a Tax/Legal
issues here.
However, I'm still looking for what the Seller needs to do/change,
so that shipping in included in the summary part of the invoice [and is included
in the amount that is liked to the pay button]. Note: shipping is listed in
the detailed section below the summary, but not in the summary.
Do I need to post this in a different forum?
|
The point is:
It's not your role to tell the seller what he exactly has to change.
For multiple reasons, like Tax, PayPal protection, eventual fees avoidance, eventual
exhorbitant shipping fees etc, and as already said, the Shipping price should
be included in the order.
You shoud NOT have to pay separate amounts for a single and simple order.
If the seller can't do this, please forget it, pick another seller.
|
OK,
1) So how do I cancel my order without it hurting me and my bricklink ratings?
2) Does this seller need to be reported to Bricklink? If so - how?
|
|
| Author: | 1001bricks | | Posted: | May 15, 2024 18:08 | | Subject: | Re: Shipping not included On invoice Summary | | Viewed: | 26 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | In Problem Order, peregrinator writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | However, the seller wants me to send 2 payments - one for the invoice summary
total, and a 2nd for the shipping.
|
How would you send the 2nd payment?
|
Seller suggests via paypal directly - not thru bricklink.
|
That’s against the TOS.
I don’t know about the rules in your state but if there’s Sales taxes on shipping,
by law, BL has to collect it, and BL can only do that if the payment is “onsite”
(done with the Pay button on the site, not by going on PayPal by yourself).
Otherwise, it’s tax fraud
| | But still looking for what the seller needs to "fix", so the invoice
they send out is correct in the first place.
|
Yep, better.
|
OK - I looked at the Invoice - Tax was based on purchase price [not counting
shipping]. Looked at a couple of my other invoices I have - tax was based on
purchase price [not counting shipping]. So. I don't believe there is a Tax/Legal
issues here.
However, I'm still looking for what the Seller needs to do/change,
so that shipping in included in the summary part of the invoice [and is included
in the amount that is liked to the pay button]. Note: shipping is listed in
the detailed section below the summary, but not in the summary.
Do I need to post this in a different forum?
|
The point is:
It's not your role to tell the seller what he exactly has to change.
For multiple reasons, like Tax, PayPal protection, eventual fees avoidance, eventual
exhorbitant shipping fees etc, and as already said, the Shipping price should
be included in the order.
You shoud NOT have to pay separate amounts for a single and simple order.
If the seller can't do this, please forget it, pick another seller.
|
|
| Author: | danb987654 | | Posted: | May 15, 2024 18:02 | | Subject: | Re: Shipping not included On invoice Summary | | Viewed: | 22 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, SylvainLS writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | In Problem Order, peregrinator writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | However, the seller wants me to send 2 payments - one for the invoice summary
total, and a 2nd for the shipping.
|
How would you send the 2nd payment?
|
Seller suggests via paypal directly - not thru bricklink.
|
That’s against the TOS.
I don’t know about the rules in your state but if there’s Sales taxes on shipping,
by law, BL has to collect it, and BL can only do that if the payment is “onsite”
(done with the Pay button on the site, not by going on PayPal by yourself).
Otherwise, it’s tax fraud
| | But still looking for what the seller needs to "fix", so the invoice
they send out is correct in the first place.
|
Yep, better.
|
OK - I looked at the Invoice - Tax was based on purchase price [not counting
shipping]. Looked at a couple of my other invoices I have - tax was based on
purchase price [not counting shipping]. So. I don't believe there is a Tax/Legal
issues here.
However, I'm still looking for what the Seller needs to do/change,
so that shipping in included in the summary part of the invoice [and is included
in the amount that is liked to the pay button]. Note: shipping is listed in
the detailed section below the summary, but not in the summary.
Do I need to post this in a different forum?
Thank You
|
|
| Author: | SylvainLS | | Posted: | May 15, 2024 00:54 | | Subject: | Re: Shipping not included On invoice Summary | | Viewed: | 31 times | | Topic: | Problem Order | |
|
| In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | In Problem Order, peregrinator writes:
| | In Problem Order, danb987654 writes:
| | However, the seller wants me to send 2 payments - one for the invoice summary
total, and a 2nd for the shipping.
|
How would you send the 2nd payment?
|
Seller suggests via paypal directly - not thru bricklink.
|
That’s against the TOS.
I don’t know about the rules in your state but if there’s Sales taxes on shipping,
by law, BL has to collect it, and BL can only do that if the payment is “onsite”
(done with the Pay button on the site, not by going on PayPal by yourself).
Otherwise, it’s tax fraud
| | But still looking for what the seller needs to "fix", so the invoice
they send out is correct in the first place.
|
Yep, better.
|
|
Next Page: 5 More | 10 More | 25 More | 50 More | 100 More
|
Canada, Ontario
USA, New Jersey
France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur
Spain, Comunidad Valenciana
